Mark Holthe 2:28
Hello, everyone, sorry for being just a few minutes behind with our big launch of our live today. And for those of you who have watched the channel, this is an area that we have not focused on a lot. But there is a very, very good reason why we're doing it now. And that is humanitarian and compassionate applications. Rhonda Lee, how are you doing my special guest?
Ronalee Carey 2:51
Hi, Mark.
Mark Holthe 2:54
So how's things in Ottawa for you? It's snowing. It's snowing. Oh, man, it's been beautiful here. If it was literally 19 degrees Celsius yesterday, it was so nice out. And I think tomorrow this nose was to be coming our direction. But But no, I'm sad that that you've got snow there. That's too bad. All right. Okay, so those of you who are connecting in, we are absolutely going to be having a q&a as a part of this. But what we want to focus on today is really to helping people understand what this humanitarian compassionate application is all about. And for all intents and purposes, it is kind of when all you know when everything else fails. That's the focus. And, and I've invited my friend Ron Lee Carrie, who's a Canadian immigration lawyer based in Ottawa to join me this evening. And we decided to do it at this time, versus later for the simple reason, or I should say earlier in the day, when we're both technically work hours, this is way into our family time. But we wanted to do this because we wanted to wait for everybody to get home so that they would have the ability to watch this. Now, as is always the case, there's many, many people that are tuning in, they watch this as recordings. So what Ronnie originally and I are going to talk about is how and why this might be a possibility, if you are if you fit within the narrow parameters of humanitarian and compassionate applications. And so we've got a bunch of people that are connecting in don't hesitate to post questions, and and then I will get to those. And if you have a good question, when Ron Lee's explaining something, I will also pull that in but today is all about humanitarian compassion applications. And so with that being said, rondalee Why don't we just jump in and cover the first topic, which is, what is an agency application?
Ronalee Carey 4:44
So there's actually two types of agency applications. So for people who are inside Canada, they can make an application for permanent residents based on humanitarian and compassionate factors. It's a standalone application. It's Have done through a portal, you upload supporting documents. And it's determined by an office, here in Canada. But there's also the ability to have humanitarian and compassionate factors considered, and applications that are made from outside of Canada. And it's also possible for humanitarian and compassionate applications to be considered in other types of applications. For example, a parent and grandparent sponsorship application for someone who was selected in the lottery. But the sponsor doesn't technically meet the minimum necessary income, I've successfully had humanitarian and compassionate considerations applied. So it's not an agency application, but agency factors were still considered.
Mark Holthe 5:45
Gotcha. And I think one of the things for those that are tuning in what rondalee basically is going to explain and as we move forward, you know, yes, it can be a standalone application. But within a lot of different applications, you can make what we call humanitarian and compassionate arguments. And so I'll give you an example. And as we get into more details, we'll be able to dive a little bit deeper. But some of you may have applied through the TR to PR pathway program. And in some instances, with the crazy race to file sometimes people maybe didn't realize that, for whatever reason, they didn't meet the eligibility requirements. In the case of one of my clients, they had graduated from a non post grad work permit granting institution. So it was a DOI, but didn't grant postgrads. And she had secured an LMIA and was working for a company in Vancouver. But she got a procedural fairness letter back from IRCC that said, Hey, you are ineligible for the TR to PR pathway. And of course, it's like one year after they filed, right, because it took forever for these to be processed. And in her case, they came back and it sent her a procedural fairness letter and said, we don't think you're eligible. So we'll give you an opportunity to explain to us while whatever your rationale as to why maybe you think you are. So we immediately included humanitarian and compassionate submissions to explain a whole bunch of factors, which we will get into later in this video. And we were actually able to transition her TR to PR pathway to a humanitarian and compassionate application. And in the end, it was approved, whereas otherwise she would have been toast. So for those of you who are finding yourself in situations like that, there is possibilities, but the agency factors have to be in your favor. And we will get to those Yes, readily. I know you've got something insightful. Yeah.
Ronalee Carey 7:32
The one other thing I would add is that this is only applicable for applications for permanent residents. The section of the legislation does not apply to applications for temporary residents. Yes. And while
Mark Holthe 7:43
you're on that topic, then what would apply to a temporary resident application?
Ronalee Carey 7:49
Well, in that case, this in terms of humanitarian and compassionate factor, let's
Mark Holthe 7:54
talk about Yeah, kind of like that. So I'll leave an answer my own question here. I don't mean to set up, you know, a tarp, right would be kind of like
Ronalee Carey 8:03
getting a temporary resident permit is for people who are inadmissible to Canada, or do not otherwise meet, you know, requirements of the legislation. So that would be the kind of permit that you would apply for if you weren't qualifying for another kind of permit.
Mark Holthe 8:21
Right. And one example that we see a lot in the use of the temporary resident permit is when you guys forget to renew your work permit, or you're out of status longer than 90 days, and you're basically hooked. And so the only option, you have to try to save yourself, unless you're prepared to leave Canada and try again, is potentially a TRP temporary resident permit, but that is for another discussion. So let's keep diving down. So agencies like your only set are designed to help you in situations where you just, you don't have any other pathways. But your factors, and the certain factors that we're going to talk about are in play. Okay, so next part rondalee, who is eligible to apply for an agency.
Ronalee Carey 9:05
So anyone who is in Canada is eligible to apply for humanitarian and compassionate application. They don't need to be in status. In fact, most people who make agency applications don't have status. For applications in other circumstances, including those from outside of Canada, the there has to be an application for permanent residents. Because you can't apply for a I want to call it a standalone application from outside of Canada. So it has to be in conjunction with an economic class application or a family class application or some other sort of application. But there are two specific exclusions. One is you can't use it to avoid the lottery for the parents and grandparents sponsorship program. And for Express Entry. You can't use it to get around being invited to apply through Express Entry. So for any of the programs that are run through Express Entry. And then there are also exclusions for people who apply from inside of Canva. And there's a whole list that's available on the immigration website. And a lot of those things are connected with people who have previously made refugee claims. So if you've made a refugee claim, and it's been denied, and less, one of the exemptions apply, you're not allowed to submit a humanitarian and compassionate application for the first year. And there's also other people who can't apply, for example, you know, if you're inadmissible to Canada, because of security concerns, significant security concerns, they're not going to let you make a humanitarian and compassionate application to overcome. Makes
Mark Holthe 10:38
sense. Okay. So that's basically at a high level in terms of eligibility, we will dive right into the specific factors that the government looks at. But before we get there, what I want to touch on is the chances of success. And this is important to talk about because people, they don't understand that it's not like Express Entry, where if you get an ITA and you submit your application, it's gonna get processed unless you screw something up, in this case with agencies Hmm, not not necessarily the case. Right.
Ronalee Carey 11:09
And it's interesting that you use the term you know, it's going to be processed. The way the legislation reads is that for applicants in Canada, an immigration officer must consider the humanitarian and compassionate factors. So they at least have to look at it. But for applications that are made from outside of Canada, the legislation says May, the officer may consider humanitarian and compassionate factors. So they don't even have to look at it if they don't want to, even though you've done this beautiful set of legal submissions, and provided all of these wonderful supporting documents, they can just go, I don't care, I'm not going to look at your agency submissions, and nobody's obligating them to do that. So that makes it really hard when you're telling people well, your chances of success are, well, if they don't even want to look at it, your chances of success are nil. For inside Canada applications, we do have some data, the immigration department does not publish success rates. So the only way we know what the percentage chances are, is when people do access to information and privacy requests to the government to ask them what the percentage success rates. So sometimes our academic colleagues will do that sometimes a journalist will do that sometimes migrants rights groups will will make those requests. So the last data that I have seen was published in 2022, by two professors at the University of Ottawa, and they published data that was up until I think it was the first quarter, I'm just looking at my other screen, the first quarter of 2021. So that's quite old now. But at that point in time, it looks like the acceptance rates for applications from within Canada had decreased significantly over the last couple of years, and was estimated perhaps as low as 30%. So that really isn't very good. You know, a couple of years ago, I used to tell people, well, you know, you probably have about a 5050 chance. But the 50% of people who are denied include people who really shouldn't have been submitting an application to begin with, they didn't have legal assistance, or they didn't have very good legal assistance. They didn't have the documents, really to backup their, you know, their submissions. And so those ones, you know, maybe rightfully should have been denied. So 5050 chance, if you have a good lawyer and a strong case, well, really, your chances were probably better than 50%. But now, I don't know what to tell people. And I have to be really, really frank with people that I don't know how their application is going to be treated. And they could go through all this stress and spend all of this money and spend all of this work giving me the documents that I want, and not being successful in the end. So I have pretty frank conversations with people about whether they really want to start this process.
Mark Holthe 14:10
Yeah, exactly. And I want to try, I'm not sure if I can do this, I actually want to flip my screen around, you might bump bump off of here randomly, but let's just gonna try to see if I can make this work. Oh, let's see if we can
Ronalee Carey 14:22
do something else. I wanted to talk about
Mark Holthe 14:26
rondalee here. Okay, you're with me. Okay. So we I wasn't going to share this. But I think it's important for people to realize that, you know, the government has annual levels plans. And we talk about this all the time, in the context of Express Entry all the time, but we rarely talk about it in the context of an agency. But if you go down here and we look at the levels plans and these is for 2024 to 2026. And you can see the immigration categories here if we go down yes, we know that there's, you know, economic immigrants. There's a large number right of those. But when you when you start to go down here, you'll see near the Bottom, under the refugees protected persons, humanitarian and compassionate applications right down here. And to see how many.
Ronalee Carey 15:10
Yeah, but it's not even mark, it's not even agency applications alone. It's agency and other. There's a couple of other very small programs that fall in there. So you see where it says it includes some admissions from Canada's response to the situation in Afghanistan. And I believe that category probably also includes individuals who have held temporary resident permits for the required period of time.
Mark Holthe 15:33
You can see it right there. Permanent
Ronalee Carey 15:35
residents. Yes. So. So it's not just agencies, standalone agencies that fall in there, it's a few other things. Now, I would imagine that agencies are the bulk of it. But the important thing is here is to highlight the number and column. Right there. Yeah, so that's next year, that's 2025. And if we can also look at 2026, you'd have to scroll over
Mark Holthe 16:01
Yeah, we can slide over, that's 2025. So that's that.
Ronalee Carey 16:06
This year, it's 13,750 people that's not even application. So if an application is for a family of four, they're using it for sports, and that 13,750 or 2025, and 2026 is 1000. So it's been cut in, you know, not quite half. And I have yet to hear anything from IRCC about why that number is being cut.
Mark Holthe 16:31
Well, it's going to be very, very interesting to see how this plays out. But this will have a direct impact on people who are looking to apply for these humanitarian and compassionate applications. And one of the main things that we're focusing on to in terms of the levels plans is, is if they have genuine, you know, eligible agencies, they can't just refuse them because they Oh, we've got too many, so I'm not going to prove it, they actually have to be refused on its merits. But going forward, what we what we do know is that if they are only allowing, say, 8000 next year, and there's 10,000 in the queue, or 20,000 in the queue, whatever it might be, the one factor that's going to be impacted is processing times. So we haven't really talked about that too much rondalee. But what are you seeing in terms of how long it takes to actually get a humanitarian and compassionate application? adjudicated?
Ronalee Carey 17:20
Yeah, but before before we talk about that, I just, I just want to step back. So the paper that I was talking about by the two professors from the University of Ottawa, talked about the fact that the denial rates have gone down as the number of applications have gone up. So I completely agree with you that humanitarian and compassionate applications are supposed to be determined on the merits of the case. And if someone doesn't like the decision that they get, they can apply to the federal court for review. However, we can't help but notice the correlation between the number of of the increasing number of applications and the increasing number of denials. And these kinds of applications are completely discretionary. What you said earlier about an Express Entry application that so long as you submit your application with all the required documents and your letter of employment needs to require standards, your application is going to be improved. It's not like that for humanitarian and compassionate application. The officer who looks at it could say, I don't think this is enough, another officer who looks at it could say, Yes, I believe this is enough. But if they're under incredible pressure, and they know what the levels plans are, what used to be enough may no longer be enough. Right? And because they're so highly discretionary, when you go to federal court, so long as the officer has justified their reasons, then the federal court is not is going to say, Well, I'm sorry, but that was a reasonable decision. They they said why they didn't believe that there was sufficient humanitarian and compassionate considerations. And not a lot of people can afford or want to appeal to the federal court, or they're being, you know, required to leave Canada. And then once they're gone, they just you know, they've lost their establishment in Canada, they've lost a lot of factors. So I hear what you say in terms of processing times decreasing. But if they just start denying more applications, the processing times may not increase that much.
Mark Holthe 19:25
That's a good point. Yep. That's a good point. Absolutely. And ultimately, yeah, yeah,
Ronalee Carey 19:29
go ahead. Current processing time on the IRCC website is listed at 20 months. But I can tell you that I have clients who are currently at about 19 months, and we don't even yet have a decision on the first stage of the application. And I can talk about the two stages of processing. I believe we're going to talk about that in a minute. So we're very close to the listed processing time. And we've had absolutely no movement whatsoever on the application for two of my files. And I've heard of colleagues who have other applications that are sitting in about the timed, same timeframe. So it looks like processing times are going up for sure.
Mark Holthe 20:06
Now, I want to bring something up here from Talia. And she says if the agency is refused, can the person apply for refugee status. And so I want to narrow our vision of who's on the other side of this camera, only two people who by and large are here working, looking for a way to stay. And, you know, so they're looking for any any avenue. And you know, as well as I do that there's these bloody representatives out there who are just looking to make a buck. And so they'll tell Talia, hey, let's file an agency. I'll charge you $10,000 for it real cheap, you know, but these are tough applications, and then they'll do a garbage job. It'll get rejected. And then Talia will say, well, Oh, it got refused. The representative says, oh, yeah, sometimes that happens, but we can file a refugee application now. Can they? And even if it was an option, does someone want to do that. And I'll qualify that with we're not giving any legal advice here. These are just generalities we're throwing out. But Canada person after they get an agency refused, apply for refugee application, any restrictions on that.
Ronalee Carey 21:13
So having an agency refused does not impact your eligibility to make a refugee claim. You're the eligibility to apply for refugee protection, and Canada has its own set of eligibility criteria. If you already have a removal order issued against you, that's one of the reasons why you wouldn't be able to apply for a refugee claim. But just because your humanitarian and compassionate application is refused doesn't necessarily mean that a removal order will be issued right away. However, I can tell you, as someone who does refugee claims, that if you have a humanitarian and compassionate claim denied, that is something that the refugee protection division will consider when determining if you have subjective fear. So whether you're really afraid to go back to your country, or if you're just trying to find any way you can to stay here. And a refugee claim is determined on its own merits, they look at the Refugee Convention, which is international law, it's not just Canada's law, Canada has incorporated the Refugee Convention into our immigration laws. But there has to be a reason under the Refugee Convention to seek protection, and you have to be able to prove that if you weren't went back to your country, now you'd be at risk. So refugee claims are also very, very quite difficult.
Mark Holthe 22:36
Interesting. All right. So, um, and I know a lot of people, you know, who watch this, are trying to figure out okay, well, what what is this actually going to cost me, you know, if I'm looking at applying what's what's reasonable in the circumstances, and that's not usually something that we talk a lot about a lot about. But it's really critical. And you and I are on we had this discussion before we were preparing for this. It's critical that us as representatives, as immigration lawyers, are very, very open and transparent with people one about the chances of success, obviously, with how much we charge. But the combination of the two and whether or not it's, it's even worth it to do that and toss that money away that could be used to help you get resettled back in your home country. And I'm going to be doing some future episodes here within the the on the Canadian immigration Institute. And we're going to specifically address and talk about some of the benefits of actually going home in the context of express entry, which a lot of people I don't think they understand, you know, the impact it can have positively when you go home and get more work experience from home. But that's a that's an entirely different discussion. So, okay, you want to tackle this one recently? Well, I
Ronalee Carey 23:53
think, you know, how much immigration lawyers charge some lawyers charge hourly. So if you're the client kind of client that never answered your lawyer's emails, and you know, you have to get asked six times before you provide documents, and you provide screenshots or JPEG files, you know, of individual pages of a document, and it takes a lot more work to put everything together, your application is going to end up costing more than it would for someone who's paying hourly but is really efficient about providing information and gets the documents in a timely fashion. And in a PDF that's readable. Other lawyers will charge a set fee. And that set fee will vary across the country and with the level of experience with the practitioner, like in some areas of the country, like you know, it is just more expensive to practice, terms of law, society fees, rent for offices, things like that. And it will also depend on how many people are in the application. So you know, I'm not going to charge the same for one single individual Well, that I will for a family with four children, two of whom were born in Canada to whom were born outside of Canada. And how much work, it's going to require to review the person's immigration history. So if I have someone who's a failed refugee claimant, they previously did it an agency that was denied. They tried to apply under express entry, and that was denied. And they've been in Canada for years and years. And I've got to read through pages and pages and pages of previous applications and notes that officers wrote in the, you know, GCMs notes and electronic system where they keep notes, I'm going to want to charge more for that application to just because it's going to be a lot more work. But what I tell people is that I charge more for humanitarian and compassionate applications than I do for any other kind of application. Because it is the most amount of work that I will ever spend on a single application. The submissions that I write that accompany humanitarian and compassionate applications usually range 15 to 20 pages, I provide hundreds of pages of supporting documents, all collated title pages, letters of explanation. And just gathering those documents takes a really long time. I also do affidavits or statutory declarations for every adult claimant, adult family members, immediate family members in Canada, so they all require multiple meetings, I have to condition their documents. So they take a really, really long time. So these are incredibly expensive applications, as least as far as I'm concerned. And that is why I tell people, you know, are you sure you really want to do this? Are you sure that the money that you're not going to spend on me and the government application fees, which is, you know, $1,300, just for a single applicant, times that by multiple adult applicants, you're looking at a very expensive application, could you take that money and go home and start a business or something like that. So
Mark Holthe 27:03
that's a great, great explanation rondalee. And so this is my opportunity to teach. And one thing I will tell you guys is that if after what rondalee told you, she the efforts that she puts into an agency application, you retain someone to assist you, and they send you a questionnaire, and they never hardly even meet with you at all. They never ask any detailed questions other than whatever was in the initial questionnaire, and they're prepared to submit it without you even hardly seeing what's in the application, please understand that there's going to be a huge difference between how that application is processed. And, for example, an application that rondalee or experienced immigration lawyer will have filed or, and there's some really good immigration consultants out there, too. But you can tell right away if they are really, really invested in it, because each one of these applications is unique to you. And the things that are included in some other person's application may not apply to you at all. And so going on your immigration forms are trying to get strategies and tips from, you know, any any online resource or crowdsourcing of information can be very, very dangerous, because each of you have your own story to tell. And as we transition to the actual things, that government looks at the things that can really help to lead to a positive decision, you'll see that they're very unique to you. And whenever there's uniqueness in an application, rondalee and I, we can't, we can't, you know, there's no economies of scale. You know, just because we did something with one person doesn't mean we just copy and paste it and use it with another person because they're from the same country, you know, and so because of that, that really tailored approach, that really custom approach, it's expensive, and if someone is offering to do at dirt cheap, and they are not engaging with you multiple times in you know, in person visits or Zoom calls, or whatever it is to gather information and strategize, then you probably hired the wrong person, because this is a lot of work. And if you want to be successful, not only do your facts have to fit the equation, but they have to be presented in a positive way. So yes, so bit pay close, close attention to that. Now I want to just pull up just a few little comments here at Talia says thank you so much. You're very welcome, Talia. And I'm gonna pull this one up. And, you know, there's Marco says, How has immigration changed from Harper to Trudeau. So basically, from the conservatives, to the liberals. And, you know, we, you could go through a whole long laundry list of different factors that are, you know, that have happened as a result of each different differing political party's policies. But to a large extent, it's global circumstances that drive a lot of this stuff. But I could say if I could say, Okay, well, what is the difference between the one difference for me between Harper and Trudeau? How's immigration change, per se, is the demand for Canadian immigration Canadian permanent residents. Canadian study permits and work is astronomically higher than when Harper was the prime Minister of Canada. And so whenever you have massive volumes of people that are in high demand to come to Canada, then it's going to affect all kinds of processing, not just processing times, but it's going to put all of you in the situation that you are right now, with very limited or no options for permanent residence after spending 1000s and 1000s of dollars, time, effort, dedication, to go to school to come to work. And so that is one of the main main differences. And, you know, express entry was in place when Harper, just before he transitioned out, and Trudeau took over. So that was in place, but it was a different world, my friends, a different world. And if you go back and look, historically at the IQ, the rounds of invitations, you will see how much lower those scores were. And of course, what else is different that, you know, the the Liberal government has prioritized different things compared to what Harper and the conservatives prioritized. And, and I know many of you are asking, Well, what if there's a party change? What if there's elections and things change? Well, what is that going to mean for for me? Well, Ronnie rondalee, and I can't answer that question. We have no clue really what's going to happen. But the reality is right now, right, things are shifting, things are becoming more difficult. So I'd wanted to address all the questions that were asked, I don't know rondalee, if you want to wade into that at all, and, and offer your thoughts about the differences between, you know, between the two prime ministers, with respect to immigration changes,
Ronalee Carey 31:30
as you know, for humanitarian and compassionate situations, or applications and how it's applied, that has not changed at all, the legislation has not changed, the programs have not changed. The only thing that that's changed is some of the exclusions in terms of when you could use humanitarian and compassionate factors. And the Express Entry, you know, not being able to use it to get around being drawn from the pool. And for the parent and grandparent programs. Those are the only recent changes. And also for humanitarian and compassionate applications. They're not driven by policy by the governing party, whoever's in power, those decisions are made by individual immigration officers. So yes, if they've been recently hired and recently changed, maybe the government that's in power, and the kind of training they're getting may be different. But if you've got an officer who's been working for the Immigration Department for their entire career, they would have been trained under a previous government. So remember what I said earlier about how these applications are highly discretionary? They're the most discretionary applications that exist in our immigration system. So I would suspect that they're less the people who make those decisions are less influenced by whoever's in power. That would be my my guess
Mark Holthe 32:51
that's a great response. rondalee. Great response. Okay. Now, here's where we're going to teach you exactly the things well, exactly, generally speaking, what the immigration officers have been directed to pay attention to in the context of your agency application. And so you can see here, I'm going to, I'm going to pull this off, I'm going to pull up this comment, look about well timed here. Leon says, what factors can be considered for agency? And so let's, let's flip over here, Ron Lee, and I are gonna slide over here. And we're gonna look at the key things that IRCC focuses on. So humanitarian and compassionate factors. Right off the bat, start with this establishment in Canada.
Ronalee Carey 33:38
Are you making that noise? That's very cool. Yeah. I didn't realize it was gonna ding like that. So of course, this factor is only important for people who are already in Canada, obviously, we're not going to use this factor for an application for someone who's not inside Canada. So establishment in Canada means are you working? Have you worked consistently? Since you've been here? Do you have family here? Are you involved in a faith community? Do you do volunteer work? Do you belong to a gym? Do you have friends? Are your kids in school? Are you in school, all of the things that people do to get themselves involved in their community and involved in Canadian society. You're the kind of person who you know goes to work and comes home and has no friends and has never done volunteer work has never joined a community organization. You have no friends or family here. Other than maybe your job, you're really not going to have any establishment in Canada. So it's the people who would be missed if they left Canada who have establishment in Canada, the people who, if they left their job, it would be really hard to replace them because they're just such a wonderful team player because they have such good skills. So people who belong to a faith community, you know, who helped what services that people are going to miss things like that. That's what they're looking for when they when they look at establishment in Canada. Yeah,
Mark Holthe 35:06
you're a fantastic football player, you know, from South America, and you're here and you're coaching youth soccer, right? Like those kinds of things. Well, if you deport me, all these awesome kids, these 15 kids and their parents on my on my team, well, they're not gonna have a coach anymore. Right? Those are meaningful things. And and people don't think about that it But in fairness, rondalee, you know, it's, it's, it's easy for us to say, hey, you should volunteer and do all these things, when we know what you guys are going through. And many cases, when it reaches the stage of you applying for humanitarian and compassionate application, often you've run out of options, or something has happened catastrophically in your family, or with your health or something that's, you know, just made it almost impossible to work, let alone volunteer. So we're mindful of those things. Yes, yeah. Really?
Ronalee Carey 35:57
Only one factor. We're gonna have a whole list. Yeah, we are.
Mark Holthe 36:01
This is one. So the more you can hit, the more you can specifically address, the better off you're going to be okay. Yeah. Next on our list ties to Canada. So
Ronalee Carey 36:11
I've always had difficulty with this, because ties to Canada and establishment in Canada are, you know, very similar. But I guess with ties to Canada, what they're looking at more is family and Canada. Oh, agency bases, if you are well established in case Canada,
Mark Holthe 36:30
posted in the comments here. Sure. It's all good. Yeah, exactly.
Ronalee Carey 36:34
Yeah. So I think that these two factors are very similar. But you know, family ties, that would be an example. But it wouldn't be enough just to have family in Canada, right? If you don't ever spend any time with that family, and they barely know, you, then you know, you haven't again, you haven't established yourself in your family community as well, right? Like, oh, yeah, I've got some cousins who live a couple provinces away. And, you know, I like their pictures on Facebook. Well, again, you could do that from your country of citizenship, you don't have to do that from within Canada. So I think that's sort of what they mean by ties to Canada, I sort of waffle between the two when I'm doing sessions.
Mark Holthe 37:17
And as we get to other factors, we'll hit on this, which with more direct attention, but people sometimes feel if I come, and I have a child here in Canada, they're born in Canada, that that's going to guarantee me the opportunity to be successful through this agency, because are they going to let my Canadian born child come back with me to a country where maybe the conditions are not as good as they are in Canada? You know, and so it's rondalee? What are your thoughts on that, although we will dive into a little bit deeper here in a second,
Ronalee Carey 37:50
that exact situation happens all the time. Because they say, Well, you don't have to bring your child back with you to your country of citizenship, you can leave them here. They can stay with the other parent if that parent has status in Canada, or they can stay with another family member. Or you can even flip put them in foster care if you want. That is not enough. That tie having a child born in Canada is not enough in all cases. Gotcha.
Mark Holthe 38:20
Give a shout out here to Joe. He says Hey, Mark. Hey, Ron Lee, great to catch the stream. Thanks for connecting in Joe. All right. Number three on the list. best interests of children. So let's dive into
Ronalee Carey 38:34
let's that brings us right from what we just talked about to best interest of children. So the best interest of children is a factor that is specifically mentioned in the legislation. It basically says And I'll actually if you don't mind, I'm actually going to read it because I think that's the best. So it says that the Minister must consider running on an A laser burner and examine the circumstances concerning the foreign national, and may grant the foreign national permanent resident status. If the Minister is of the opinion that it is justified by humanitarian and compassionate considering considerations relating to that person taking into account the best interests of a child directly affect it. So it's the only factor that's specifically listed in the legislation. And the courts have looked at that. And they have said that, although best interests of the child is of a high degree of importance, it is not the only factor and it is not enough on its own. So even when we talk about the best interest of children, there still has to be circumstances which are somewhat extraordinary. And that's a very loaded word because the federal court has bandied around With the word extraordinary, but it's not for every case where the best interest of the child will be sufficient to grant the applicant permanent residence in Canada. So we'll look at cases where the country conditions are such that the child would be significantly adversely affected. So for example, recently, I read about a case where there was a child who had asthma, pretty bad asthma. And before he came to Canada from India, he had to use puffers, and a lot of medication to help him with his asthma. But when he came to Canada, his asthma was a lot better. And so one thing that that was put into the humanitarian and compassionate application was that this child's health was going to get worse if he had to go back to India. And the person who made the decision said, Well, you know, with climate change, and wildfires, you know, the, you know, conditions aren't that great either. The thankfully, and that was actually one of the first cases where climate change was, you know, sort of not sort of indirectly brought into a federal court decision on humanitarian and compassionate considerations. Thankfully, the Federal Court said, you know, I really think you need to look at this a little bit more thoroughly than what this officer did. So they sent it back for another officer to look at because you still couldn't compare the level of air pollution in India to a bad wildfire day in Canada. So that's an example where the best interest of children, it wasn't just Well, yeah, life in Canada is better for this child, it was his health would be effective. And that was why it was in his best interest to stay here.
Mark Holthe 41:44
And one thing, I'll add another example, because I think this is where people learn. And we'll give a shout out here to cilia. This is where people learn is from actual scenarios, right. And so I'll give you another example. So one of the factors in my TR to PR, one of my TR to PR because I've done a couple of these through agency, but in this case, it was it was a Filipino woman who was here. And she, she was single, but she had two sisters back in the Philippines that were still on the family farm. They had with all their children, they each had, I think, four and five kids themselves. And because of the work that this this my client was doing in Canada, she was sending money back to them. And so they were able to access health care coverage that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to benefit from, as well as school go to schools that they wouldn't have been able to go to otherwise. And so you have to understand that when it comes to the best interests of children. It's not necessarily just the children that are here in Canada at the time. And many people don't understand that. And so we put in a lot of evidence to show the money that was sent back and forth, the actual records of, you know, the school records for the kids, the fact that they were doing well, excelling, they had close like and you know, they weren't a well off family by any means, but because of what she was doing here. And with the TRS repair pathway, like I said she, she wasn't going to have a path forward, because she wasn't eligible. But because of the humanitarian, compassionate factors that directly affected the interests of these children, we were able to get it approved. So that's a very positive scenario.
Ronalee Carey 43:19
So the child could be the applicant themselves. The child could be a Canadian child whose parents are the applicant, and might be deported. And then you're right, it can be any child who's affected by whether or not the person applying for permanent residence gets granted that permanent resident status. So I've had I recently did an application again for a single woman, but she had a number of great nieces and great nephews in Canada. And it was a very, very tight family, they often got together, 30 of them would often get together, crammed into a house and have dinner together. And you know, it was very important for her nieces, great nieces and nephews that she be allowed to stay here. So her application was approved as well.
Mark Holthe 44:08
Very cool. All right. So writer que says Hi, Mark in rondalee. The case about a child from India that rondalee just discussed would also apply in reverse example, if a senior parent has no one back home to take care of her and as a child in Canada are right. Okay, you got to hold your horses, because we're going to get to this. So let's take a look at a few other factors here. All right, adverse country conditions. So and you will see you guys at the start to blend in together. All right, because what could be considered, you know, an issue that's in the best interest of a child could also have overlays with things like adverse country conditions or ties to Canada or establishment. So these are really interchangeable and you have to weave them together. Yeah.
Ronalee Carey 44:57
All right. The new buzzword for that Mark is intersectionality
Mark Holthe 45:01
intersectionality love it. Okay, so
Ronalee Carey 45:05
ours country conditions has intersectionality with refugee claims as well. So it specifically stated that officers who are determining agency applications may not consider risk in their analysis. So I can't put in an agency application that my client will be killed if they get returned to their country of origin because that is more properly a part of a refugee claim. However, a lot of adverse country conditions, and risk factors in refugee claims are almost the same. So if you were going back to your country, and you were your children are at risk of kidnapping, and so you would never be able to send them to the park to play like they can in Canada. And they would have to be driven in a armored car to school, or maybe they couldn't even go to school because it would be unsafe, it's not in the best interest of that child because of the adverse country conditions that that child would have to live in. This is how we get around sort of not being able to discuss risk is we talk about adverse country conditions. But adverse country conditions can mean all sorts of things. So the client I was just talking about, who had great nieces and great nephews in Canada, was from Lebanon, where right now it is very difficult to get prescription medication, you can have all the money in the world. But if there's no medication in the store to buy, because they can't get shipments in, and you have a medical condition, then that's an adverse country condition. So is the availability of food, the available, you know, regardless of the amount of money that you have, so there's lots of different things that can come into adverse country conditions that could affect you, they have to look at what circumstances you would be living in if you returned.
Mark Holthe 47:05
So I don't hear DeMarco, thank you, my friend. He said, Thanks, Mark, you always provide detailed answers Starbucks on me. Well, that's kind enough to share that with rondalee. Virtually. All right. Okay. So next on our list, let's see if I can make sure I'm hitting the right buttons here. health considerations, which really, to some extent, I guess, overlap, like you said, with adverse country conditions and everything else. But
Ronalee Carey 47:30
that's, you know, again, availability of health care, availability of medication discrimination. So for example, if you're someone who has HIV, and oh, yeah, well, maybe you can get treatment. But you know, if you go to the doctor, it means everyone's going to be told that you have HIV. And that's going to make it hard for you to get a job as a result. Privacy in the health care system is also something that can come into health considerations. You know, here, we take it for granted that doctors aren't going to spread information about her, or health conditions, but maybe that's not going to be the case somewhere else. So all aspects of medical care can come into these kinds of applications. And you have to be creative, you have to do your research, you have to get proof that the person has a health condition, or a mental health condition, perhaps they're in they come from a country where they have a mental health disorder, and they're going to be considered a witch. Right. And they're going to be you know, discriminated against because they have a mental health condition. So that's something else to consider. We're not just talking about physical health. We're also talking about mental health here.
Mark Holthe 48:44
Absolutely. Yeah. Had a little little visitor who popped by there. My wife just got home and he was absolutely bent on going to greet her so he was going to attack me unless I let them through. So Simba Simba once in a while makes appearances on the live streams to my Okay.
Ronalee Carey 49:02
To those sitting, you're right at my feet.
Mark Holthe 49:04
Yes. That's life. That is our joyful life now. All right.
Ronalee Carey 49:10
I'll make an appearance between now and the end of the show. If
Mark Holthe 49:13
they Yeah, absolutely. Everybody's welcome. So music without borders here says, Hey, Mark, and rondalee Thank you for taking the time and to discuss about this topic. I just have a question, will you lose eligibility for express entry if you have sought protection? Now I'm going to clarify so everybody else knows protection is, you know, synonymous with with a refugee claim. So wrongly Do you want to then this is different than a humanitarian
Ronalee Carey 49:41
question, no problem because I do humanitarian and compassionate applications Express Entry and refugee claims. So I've got it all covered. So when you make a refugee claim you are issued a removal order, that removal order deportation order is stayed so it's not enforced. until your refugee claim is determined. If your refugee claim is denied, then they enforce the removal order and they kick you out of the country. Theoretically, anyway, anyone who has a removal order no longer has the kind of status in Canada that you need to gain Canadian experience for the purposes of calculating your comprehensive ranking system points. So well, you lose eligibility for express entry, you don't lose eligibility, but any work that you have, after the point you claim refugee protection is not going to be counted anymore. But the work that you did before you claimed refugee protection, could still be considered, the only problem is that you do have a removal order. So if you get invited to apply for express entry, you can't become a permanent resident from within Canada, you have to leave Canada, go somewhere else to another country. And then you can come back with your approval under express entry. And that is something I clarified with the immigration department and about 2016, very shortly after the Express Entry Program was started because I had a refugee claimant who was a nurse. And I had applications going for her under both the refugee stream and I put in an Express Entry application.
Mark Holthe 51:21
So Excellent. Excellent, excellent. All right. I think there's one thing in order for that response, certainly. Give me a round of applause for that one. Because people, I can tell you that the vast majority of even representatives do not do not know that. They don't know what you can and can't do in the context of a of a refugee claimants, it impacts other areas. I
Ronalee Carey 51:45
have a kind of a unique practice area. We, as lawyers, as immigration lawyers, we tend to do humanitarian work, refugee work, family sponsorships, or economic immigration, which often can include helping businesses. And I, I have this mix where I don't represent businesses, but I represent individuals and family and that includes refugee claimants and also includes private sponsorship of refugees, which had been on the show before. So you know, I belong, unfortunately, it means I belong to three different listservs and end up reading hundreds of listserv posts a week just to try to stay on top of things because I have to read all the ones for the refugee lawyers and all the ones for the other, you know, the economic streams as well. So it's been more work, but
Mark Holthe 52:34
I did a little search Canadian immigration podcast rondalee Carry. And here we go. We had our private sponsorship of refugees. You were episode 29 and episode 51. I think we're at I don't know, 130 or something now. But But yeah, that
Ronalee Carey 52:52
75 More episodes? Absolutely.
Mark Holthe 52:54
It's time well, you know what Rolly, this actually is going to be a podcast episode that we're going to convert it. So we're going to make this one a podcast episode as well. All right, let's jump back into here. So just if those those of you who are just tuning in and connecting in this is a discussion is all about humanitarian and compassionate applications. And basically, when everything else fails, sometimes this May, in in very, very limited circumstances be a possibility for you. But for some people who are just not aware of it, you could lose out on an opportunity to actually stay in Canada as a permanent resident, when or maybe if you weren't aware of some of these factors. So with the factor list, let's go back here. And let's continue on. But I'm going to address Selena's question here only. Can all of these factors be lumped in an agency, or you have to pick what applies to you and build more evidence on that are all these factors can can basically come into play in an agency application?
Ronalee Carey 53:58
Right, so when I do legal submissions, I address each factor individually. I also talk about judicial decisions that have reviewed those particular factors as they apply to the case. And I discuss each piece of evidence that I have that relates to that particular factor. So yes, I lay it out one by one, the immigration website, their instruction manual for officers lays these things out. We're not making these up. These come from the instructions for officers, right, because the legislation just says we can look at humanitarian and compassionate considerations or the officers can. So other than the best interests of children, they don't the legislation itself doesn't lie on each of these factors. This comes from the processing manual that instructs officers how to determine these applications. So the goal is to make it as clear as possible for the officers of how they can positively exercise their discretion, and the more things that you can tell them look It fits this, it fits that it fits this. Look how many things that the policy manual says you're supposed to look at. And they all apply in this case, you definitely should consider this worthy. So yeah, so I'm not going to lump it into altogether. I'm going to idiot proof My Submissions as much as I can. That's what I like to call it. Perfect.
Mark Holthe 55:19
Yes, Colette has a question here, he says, is discrimination based on age ageism, a factor when it comes to something like employment? Absolutely,
Ronalee Carey 55:28
that would be considered an adverse country condition. But I wouldn't just say that I would find articles that talk about either newspaper articles, or social science research or academic articles, statistics that talk about, you know, ageism in the workforce in that country, I wouldn't just say, oh, you know, whether this whole they're going to have trouble finding a job, and I wouldn't rely on my client statement that that was the case. I will be finding evidence, empirical evidence to back up that statement. Absolutely.
Mark Holthe 55:59
All right. Okay, let's continue on with our list of factors. So we're on number six here. Think this is six. Let's see, I can test this it. Yeah. Okay, number six, here comes, there's number five. Again, there's number six, family violence considerations,
Ronalee Carey 56:17
right. So that, especially for individuals who are in Canada, they will actually even process applications on an expedited basis. So I'll give you an example of where this could come in. So husband and wife and children come to Canada, the husband and the child are already Canadian citizens, the husband because he was born here, the children because their father was born here, they come to Canada, the wife has a visitor comes as a visitor, and the husband says, I'm going to apply to sponsor you, for permanent residents. And then there is an incident of domestic violence. And they, you know, the parties separate the husband and wife separate as a result of that domestic violence. And so because they're no longer living together, even if the husband wanted to sponsor the wife, he can't because they're, you know, they have to be in a genuine relationship, and they have to be cohabiting. So what is the what is the mother of the children do at this point in time, you know, her children are Canadian. If she goes back to her country, maybe she won't even be allowed to take the children with her, maybe the Father will go to court and say, Well, no, that's not a good country for the children to live in. That's why we came to Canada to begin with. And then so the mother has to leave her children, that doesn't seem fair at all, and not even perhaps safe for the for the children. So family violence considerations is something that the officer can look at, in addition to best interest of children in addition to adverse country conditions, specifically to allow women or other victims of domestic violence, or other types of family violence to be allowed to stay in Canada. Also, for dependent children of people who are in here in Canada, as well, so for example, you know, an 18 or 19 year old, so they're still considered a dependent child. And they came with their family. They're here as temporary workers. And, and there's child abuse in the home. So in I've seen cases like that, not myself, but one of my colleagues here in Ottawa, who works at a legal clinic had a case like that, where she was representing a young woman who needed to leave the family home because of child abuse, and wanted to get her permanent residents in Canada because she couldn't, she was a woman who couldn't really live in her country as a young single.
Mark Holthe 58:42
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's all different kinds of factors that can come into play, too. You know, I've got a client right now that we're in the process of filing an agency application for it, where it's a situation of domestic abuse, and the children are Canadian, and the, you know, soon to be applicant is, is a foreign national. And, you know, the spouse, unfortunately is, you know, they didn't take steps to do the sponsorship when things were, you know, more pleasant, I guess, in the relationship. But, you know, now unfortunately, it's the agency is the is the natural route, and I'll be honest, rondalee, like you said, I have no doubt that the agency application is going to be approved in her situation. But But yeah, finally family violence Absolutely. Is is a huge factor. huge factor. Okay. Next consequences of family separation, and you've kind of hinted hinted on this a little bit before in some of the, you know, in the in the context of some other factors, but what are your thoughts on this one?
Ronalee Carey 59:45
So, you know, again, there's intersectionality, between ties to Canada establishment in Canada and the best interest of the children. But what we're looking at here is how a family either an immediate family or An extended family is going to be affected by someone being deported. So for example, you know, if you have a mum and dad, and they're both contributing economically, here in Canada to the children's welfare, you know, paying for extracurricular activities, a nice place to live, you know, groceries, healthy food, and one of the parents is going to be sent back to a country where they're not going to be able to earn very much money, and they will barely be able to survive much less than money for their children, that's going to be a consequence to the family. So it will affect children. But it's also going to affect the family's ability to be self sufficient here in Canada, maybe they'll have to get welfare assistance, who knows. So that's one example that are also looking at. Like, for example, I have a case right now where there's a family member who has mental health concerns, and the foreign national is a family member who is providing a significant amount of support to that individual. So if they lose that support, it's going to affect that adult who has mental health considerations. That person helps take them to medical appointments, lists with them, actually, so provides day to day care in terms of grocery shopping, and cooking and things like that, that the person with mental health condition just can't do for their own. So the consequence of separating them from their family member in that case is going to be pretty significant to the Canadian. So again, there's all sorts of things that can come in here, it's really going to depend on the circumstances, and the circuit and the circumstances of the Canadian family members, but also the circumstances of the person who's going to have to leave. Yes.
Mark Holthe 1:01:43
All right, I'm going to pull this one up right away just really quick. So the people that are watching can understand. So de Samuel says, Hi, sir, can I apply for my mother under agency, who is currently in Canada as a visitor, she's 80 years old, and no other children and widowed? So anytime we have these types of questions, I always ring that little bell. And that basically means, hey, if you need direct assistance like this, because randomly and I can't tell you whether or not you may or may not be eligible for agency, there's definitely factors there at play, that may, you know, may justify to some extent, humanitarian, compassionate application. But what I want to always do is, is just slide over here. And in the description, we have a link to Ron Lee's site where you can connect and and schedule a consultation with her. And so there's a link below in the description. And I recommend, yeah, I'd recommend Samuel that you consider doing that. Right.
Ronalee Carey 1:02:42
And I would like to make one comment, Samuel was had an eye apply. There's a difference between can I apply? Or if I apply? Well, my mother's application be accepted? So can a visitor apply? As for an agency application? Yes, they can. So that answers the can question. And that's not legal advice for Samuel directly. I think I'm not sure what if Samuel wants to know, can he? Or Or will the application be successful? Whether or not the information the application will be successful, is going to depend on a lot of things have I have I been successful for widowed mother? Who's 80 years old? Well, maybe not exactly. 80. But yes, I have. But what country? Are we talking about? Are there any health considerations? Are there any grandchildren here in Canada? These are all the things that you would have to canvass in an individual consultation? Yep.
Mark Holthe 1:03:42
All right. Okay, let's jump to Next on our list in ability to leave Canada.
Ronalee Carey 1:03:51
So this is a really interesting one. And I think you know, what IRCC is getting at here is, you could have left Canada, but you couldn't for reasons outside of your control. So for example, there was a pandemic. And there were no flights, and you couldn't leave by car or plane or boat or train. And so as a result, you spent an extra eight months in Canada. And during that eight months, something happened that was different than the eight months previous, and now you've had a child you've gotten a new job you've who knows what could have happened and as a result of that inability to leave Canada you've established more you know, ties to Canada, you've got more establishment in Canada. So it's not like you stayed in Canada for all this time, just because you are hiding out here and living, you know, without status and working under the table is that you really weren't allowed to leave. Another example would be people who can't be removed from Canada because of the circumstances in their home country. So for example, For right now, we don't expect anyone from Ukraine to return to Ukraine. There is actually a directive that with the exception of significant criminality, maybe that'll be different. But we do not return people to unlisted number of countries through either an administrative deferral of removal or a temporary oh my god, I can't remember the other other one. Anyway, there's two different types of sorts moratorium. Yeah. So moratorium countries are there's two different lists, and I can't remember off the top of my head, but one is meant to be more temporary than the other. The other one is, we recognize that conditions in that country are probably not going to change for many, many years. So they go on a different list. So you may have lived in Canada for 10 years, because after you got to Canada, there was a war girlcode, or something else happened, and we don't expect you to leave. And during that time period, you did all sorts of things to become established in Canada. And so the fact that you stayed in Canada, even though you really weren't supposed to be here isn't something that's supposed to be taken against you.
Mark Holthe 1:06:07
All right. Number nine, ability to establish in Canada for overseas applicants,
Ronalee Carey 1:06:15
right? So if you, okay, so for example, you're not allowed to sponsor a family member, unless they're a member of the family class. Okay. So if you do an application, a sponsor, family member, and you ask for humanitarian and compassionate considerations to be applied, to waive the fact that the person is not a member of the family class, okay? So you're applying to sponsor your nephew, even though you're not normally allowed to sponsor a nephew, that person's ability to get a job in Canada. If they speak the language, if they have a support network that's going to help them get on their feet, those are all important considerations that they will look at, when they're looking at whether or not they can allow the person to come here, if the person is going to come in here, never be able to work has no family support is going to require social assistance, then it will be a negative factor in their ability to establish in Canada.
Mark Holthe 1:07:19
And last but not least, I like this one, probably my favorite probably, you unique or exceptional circumstances. So what makes you so special, that it's just tough.
Ronalee Carey 1:07:35
So, you know, in the case, law, there's this, there was this case, and it was a long time ago, but the courts keep sort of bringing up the same remarks from that case. And it talks about whether or not sort of the average Joe in Canada would look at that person's circumstances and feel sorry for them. I'm paraphrasing. But that's basically what it comes down to whether whether you know, a regular Canadian would have compassion for that person and say, you know, what, if I was the person making a decision here, I would let them stay in Canada. So I'll give you an example. And unfortunately, this is an example from my my law firms, archives that was not successful. But we had an international student who had a very, very significant injuries from an automobile accident, had to abandon his studies, went through rehabilitation for a really long time. And wasn't going to be able to apply as a regular international student, because they couldn't get a post graduation work permit and all these things. So and they but they were well established here in terms of they belong to a faith community, they have family here, they've been living here for a really, really long time. And they also wouldn't have done as well medically in their home country. So there were lots of positive factors, you know, and I would have hoped that the reasonable person, my neighbor might have said, well, sure, yeah, that guy had a horrible car accident, and his parents are here, and he's ability a candidate for 10 years, we should let him stay. And unfortunately, despite the best best efforts with my associate lawyer who did that application, and you know, when I reviewed it before, she submitted it, and she did an excellent job. It was not accepted. Because it was a young man could go back to his country. And you know, he, at that point in time, was willing, if he could have worked, he could have got a job there. So they're just they said, no,
Mark Holthe 1:09:38
no, just within their, that's within their prerogative to do
Ronalee Carey 1:09:42
but we thought that that was a unique circumstances, like how many international students who otherwise would have had a brilliant future in Canada. Ariana, you know, an almost tragic car accident. You know, it's pretty unique. And so again, it really comes to out to individual circumstances, and meeting and just going through everything in the person's life and everything that they've done since they've been here and all the circumstances that apply. And then knowing, you know, like, I keep a case law bank, I recently did a workshop for junior lawyers through the Canadian Immigration Lawyers Association. And one thing I shared in my resources was something called we call it our case law bank. And every time I see a really good case, from the federal court, that looks at certain factors, you know, like, oh, the person was in a car accident, or the person had asthma, you know, these are the kinds of cases that I, I like to throw on my case law bank. And we keep a good table of contents, so that, you know, if I have a case, I, I can go and check my case law bank, because I really do try to keep, you know, as many relevant cases in there as I can, and then I'll still have to do other research. But it gives me a starting point, for these sorts of unique and exceptional circumstances.
Mark Holthe 1:11:01
Here's a tough one. I love asking you will undocumented work to support yourself used against you, in an agency context or play in your favor? Assuming you're not able or cannot did not prove it?
Ronalee Carey 1:11:18
Well, if you can't, if you can't prove that you have the work experience in Canada, then it's not going to play in your favor. So you know, and so you sort of have to go to your employer and say, I know that you've been hiring me under the table, and you could get in a lot of trouble for having done that. But will you write me a letter for my, my
Mark Holthe 1:11:36
ties to Canada, my establishment here?
Ronalee Carey 1:11:40
Here's my, you know, confirm that you've been paying me in cash and, and yet we do that all the time, we get those letters from employers, immigration does not seem to go after employers who provide those letters. And they also will take positively work experience in Canada, even though it was done. Under the table, it was done as an undocumented work on authorized work. However, you know, it's again, it's going to depend on the officer because some officers will say, Well, you know, you should have left and you didn't leave, and you, you know, worked under the table. And you know, you took advantage you haven't you know, you're coming, you're not coming to this with clean hands. So it really will depend on the immigration officer, how they will decide how to look at that particular factor. It can go either way.
Mark Holthe 1:12:31
Both sides
Ronalee Carey 1:12:34
are positively I wouldn't I would say. Yeah.
Mark Holthe 1:12:36
But notwithstanding that both rondalee. And I would advise all of you to not do that. I recommend to the authorization.
Ronalee Carey 1:12:44
Yes, absolutely. Indeed, yes. We're talking about people who have already done the work without authorization.
Mark Holthe 1:12:51
Yes. And then they come to us, and then we're trying to sort it out.
Ronalee Carey 1:12:55
Yeah, exactly. They've come to us. And they have already been living without status in Canada for a long time. They've already worked without authorization. Am I going to keep out the fact that they've worked without authorization in their humanitarian and compassionate application? No, of course not. Because it shows that they have the ability to become properly economically established in Canada. And it shows that they can be financially self sufficient, which is one of the requirements. And in the second step of processing, which is I talked earlier about how there's actually two steps to processing. One of the things in the second step of processing is showing that you are financially self sufficient. So you have to provide evidence that you're working or you have been working.
Mark Holthe 1:13:40
All right, right. Okay, comes back with one last question if Sr, parents Canadian PR what their son was a refugee in another country, to be sponsored by agency to take care of the parents with the application of a chance to win.
Ronalee Carey 1:13:53
So, again, I'm gonna go back to can and will it be accepted? So can the Canadian permanent residents apply to sponsor their son? So that's a situation where the son is not considered part of the family class for a family class application. You're only allowed to sponsor, your spouse, your parents or grandparents if you're selected through the lottery and a dependent child. So if this son is not a dependent child, and the son can't be sponsored, so they would have to do a Family Class application and put in humanitarian and compassionate factors and whether the
Mark Holthe 1:14:30
visitor coming accepted on yours or visitor. Hello. That is the cutest dog in the world or the LI woke me up. My eyes are still still blurry.
Ronalee Carey 1:14:47
No, he was he was telling me I don't know if he wants to Office stocks because they do not all the time, but they do come to the office. And if you would like to see a professional headshot This dog, you can look on my website under the our team. And and he's in there along with the other one who is still sleeping.
Mark Holthe 1:15:08
That's awesome, very
Ronalee Carey 1:15:14
saved a refugee during a hearing who was incredibly anxious. And we had a break, and he held the dog. And he calmed down enough to be able to finish his hearing. So, yeah,
Mark Holthe 1:15:25
so cool. Yeah. So cool. All right, let's. Okay. I think maybe we've already kind of covered this. We'll do a couple more questions. And then we'll, we're kind of getting a little bit late and evening here for rondalee. So I know agencies, agencies can be done outside of Canada. Well, you can you can submit,
Ronalee Carey 1:15:44
submitted in conjunction with another type of application.
Mark Holthe 1:15:48
Yeah. And so Mohammed, this is something what are the chances to get approved? Once again, we it's not something that Ron Lee and I can really address, although I'll tell you, it's not so much approved as to, you know, even getting them to entertain the request. So yeah. All right. Okay, let's jump now to number six on our list, which we're going to zip through. So what are the agency factors? We've covered that? Whoops. Now, what are the essential supporting documents, we really don't have time to go through the big long laundry list. But
Ronalee Carey 1:16:22
yeah, I sort of been trying to get through that, as we've been talking, we've talked
Mark Holthe 1:16:25
about them. And one I guess I'll add on there is if if you are trying to prove the impact of something, say on family, let's say if a parent, one of the parents is has to leave, and child has to stay with a family member here, or there's some other factors like that. One really, really critical component is to get an opinion from a psychologist, and, you know, and have that assessment done, where they can professionally assess the the impact psychologically and otherwise, that the separation say in a family could have, in other cases, you know, if there are, like underlying health concerns, and getting a medical practitioner to provide a letter to confirm, yes, this person needs this treatment. And, you know, they may not be able to opine on the state of the medical facilities in the country in which the person is going but, you know, we can research and we can provide evidence to support that or even get a medical practitioner in the home country to provide evidence. So so these are experts reports are really, really a critical component to these that people, you know, that should be included. And they yes, they cost money, but they can really make or break the difference because an officer, you know, although they don't have to just accept everything they see. They have to give due attention and you know, acknowledge that it's coming from a professional, and they can't just dismiss it, like they know better. At least that's what the the federal court cases have told us. But yeah, can you add any other additional supporting documents, rondalee. Anything else?
Ronalee Carey 1:18:02
Anything that you can think of? Absolutely. And both individual documents, case law, and country condition documents. Like for example, if I you know, I've had the case where a grandparent is going to have to leave Canada, I will provide articles that talk about the positive impact that grandparents have in children's lives, right, I've got a bank of them. Now, because I've represented more than one grandparent, this is the one time that you get to sort of reuse some things like this, but I'll always check to see if there's new document new articles that have come out. But that's again, it's you know, researchers, academic researchers, psychologists have written articles about these sorts of things. So those are the kinds of things that can go in for the officer to consider. This is how we end up with hundreds and hundreds of pages in these applications.
Mark Holthe 1:18:56
Alright, I'm just gonna think it's this one. I've got so many buttons here. Let's call this a kind response. I love these responses. So read a case is such comprehensive discussion of agency. Very informative. Thank you so much, Martin, for inviting rondalee And you're very tech savvy. Mark, I appreciate it. Hey, you should have seen me scrambling before we see you can see I'm always I'm still trying to figure out which button do I push here? I've got everything all kind of sorted out. But uh, yeah, you're very, very welcome. Any other anything else before we wrap up with kind of what to expect after you submit the application? Is there
Ronalee Carey 1:19:29
any other was that our last bullet point? I thought we had more
Mark Holthe 1:19:33
we got one more, which is the steps so we'll hit that one right at the very end. Yeah.
Ronalee Carey 1:19:40
Okay, so steps. So agency applications, there's two, two steps. In the first step, the officer will examine whether or not they feel that there are sufficient humanitarian and compassionate factors to allow the application to be approved in principle So as long as you make it through step two, your application will be approved and you will become a permanent resident. And a very important part is you have to wait until you get that preliminary approval to be allowed to apply for a work permit. And I know this is something mark, you really want to highlight. So you don't like remember I said, I have two clients who are at like the 19 month mark, and they still don't even have that approval in principle letter yet. So they've had to be without work this whole time. Unless you're going to be working without authorization, you can't get a work permit until you get to that first stage of processing. So that's really important. So not only is these applications really expensive, and you might need expert reports, and you might need like a psychological report, you might be without work for a really long time as well, unless you're willing to work, you know, take that risk of having unauthorized work and really getting in trouble and even being able to find somebody who would be willing to employ you. So that, of course, is why we don't recommend it. But and then you and then you have to wait until your work pardon permit is processed. And what's the current processing time for in Canada, we're
Mark Holthe 1:21:11
probably 100 days or something like that.
Ronalee Carey 1:21:15
So the second stage of processing, they look at whether or not you're inadmissible to Canada, so they do a map, you have to do a medical examination and find out whether or not you're medically inadmissible to Canada, they will complete your criminal and security checks. And you also have to show that you're not financially inadmissible. So that you're not going to require public funds to sustain yourself. But you can get a waiver of that. So if you're not, you're not able to be financially independent, like if you're an elderly person, and you're going to be living with your children and your children have said you're gonna live with them, they can still waive that requirement. But you know, if you haven't already provided evidence of how you're supporting yourself, you know, you have to get a job. And you've got to show that you can support yourself financially or another way so that you can support yourself financially once you're allowed to work. So that's the second part. And they'll also want updated application forms if it's been more than two years since you initially submitted your application. And now I have a couple of clients who are coming up on two years, so I may have to redo their forms, which means I probably need to charge them some more money. So that's what happens in the in the second, the second part. And then after that is just standard processing you, you submit your up to your application to confirm your permanent residents through the portal, you put your photo the same as all the other permanent resident applications who are within Canada.
Mark Holthe 1:22:42
So one thing I'll point out, and this whole world of unauthorized work. So give you another example of an agency we filed in our in our firm, it was for a father, unfortunately, his his wife kind of fell off the rails, she was the Canadian, he was a foreign national. And then they had three children, Canadian children, and they just weren't able to get the spousal sponsorship done. And dad stayed on visitor status and extended to the point where it got rejected, then he came to see me. But mom, unfortunately struggled with addiction and things like that, and was just not able to care for the children and the relationship fell apart. And she basically without kind of living on the street. And it was not a good scene, and you know, the divorce was the path that they were going down. While these three Canadian children, they're not going to be able to, you know, take care of themselves and dad had to work, you know, to be able to provide for the family. And so in that situation, if the circumstances justify it, given the length of an agency processing, a tarp and a work permit together, sometimes can help to bridge that gap. But the processing time for the tarp and the work permit, you know, are often a year at a minimum in the best of circumstances. But if you're looking at over two years to process an agency, it may be worth it at the same time that you file an agency or even before you get it submitted to prepare and submit a TRP and an open work permit application if the circumstances justify it. And I've done that a couple times, probably three times, you know, and rondalee is the same as I am, you know, if an individual we feel doesn't have a really good shot at an agency, we're not going to submit an application that we feel is frivolous. And when we do take on clients, we honestly feel based on our experience, and we've been at this for 20 years or however long it is, you know that there is a chance and it's worth submitting the application. And so, you know, so generally there's there's usually a decent shot at it and and so if you can get the open work permit and the TRP then in some cases, the the applicant may be able to start working even before they reach that first stage of approval. The regulations say processing
Ronalee Carey 1:24:56
Yeah, I used to not bother with TRPs because The approval in principle would come in about the same time as the TRP might be submitted or might be approved. And the timing for applying for work permit wasn't as long. So it just didn't seem to me, there was no really point like, I thought you're gonna, you're gonna get a work permit after you get approval in principle in just as much time as it's going to take for TARP. But now, I wouldn't be changing my mind about that I would now be telling people, you know, yes, you can get your $1,000 to do a tarp as well. But if you have a case where the person's not going to be working anyway, like, lately, I seem to be doing a lot for elderly people who are not working age anyway. So in that case, it's irrelevant. But yes, I agree when the circumstances are valid, and you can always have, you know, you can request urgent processing with evidence, you can see if a member of Parliament would be willing to poke IRCC Hey, you know, this isn't really worthy case, are you willing to, you know, process this a little bit more quickly, you know, you maybe you'll get lucky. And there are also special provisions for temporary resident permits and work permits for individuals who are in situations of family violence, and they do get progress much more
Mark Holthe 1:26:14
quickly. Yeah. And it also makes sense to also talk about the vulnerable worker, open work permits, also available in events, you know, circumstances where there's an abusive situation in your employment relationship. So those are also a possibility. And those do get looked up pretty quick. Now, you have to have your evidence, it's not a slam dunk, just by making the request. And we tried to make that request for for an applicant and what I thought was pretty justifiable circumstances, but the individual had not taken certain steps to, you know, report the violations to Employment Standards and other things to really document the the abuse, they just left employment. And, and in the end, that application was rejected, and they had to go home. But but there are other avenues. And guess how you can figure out what those avenues are you in individual consultation, right? On lean, you know, on myself to reach out to us and in the description of the video where you're watching this, you can find links to both Ron Lee and our office. Alright, let's wrap up with just a couple last questions. And then we're going to say Sian IRA, so uma says, I'm in my post grad work from right now with spouse and six year old, our permit is valid until March 28 2026. When are we supposed to start submitting agency application? Thanks. Not exactly, exactly. This is not something.
Ronalee Carey 1:27:44
Because, you know, the situation for international students who have post graduation work permit, these factors do not apply. You know, and one thing that we didn't list is that you really have no other option. Yep. Yes. So work permit holders are supposed to be getting skilled work experience and then applying through Express Entry. So you have another option agency is an application of last resort. Yes, supposed to be when you have no other options, or at least those other options are not viable.
Mark Holthe 1:28:16
Yes, when everything else fails, or they're not or they're not viable. That's really the foundation of this for sure. So
Ronalee Carey 1:28:22
if that person came to me, frankly, I probably wouldn't even entertain a consultation. But my answer would be no, you can't. Not that you can't, you can, but it is highly unlikely that it would be accepted unless there are significant extenuating circumstances you bet.
Mark Holthe 1:28:39
And just to help rondalee as well, I'm almost positive rondalee would accept the console. But what she would do is explained all of the other viable options that are actually available and better than wasting any effort on an agency. And yeah, both rondalee and I love to talk with people whose work permits are expiring March 28 2026, instead of our 22,024 Right, and five days, which is usually when you guys booked the consults, so we'd love to talk to people and help strategize years in advance instead of when all else fails then you come to us so
Ronalee Carey 1:29:17
it's like you've gone to the doctor when you already have for Stage cancer and you expect me to be a miracle worker there are Yeah, I am.
Mark Holthe 1:29:26
That is absolutely correct. Okay. Let's see here. You uma just to qualify that she says I'm in the the CC pool but has low score and as a PNP profile as well. Can I apply for agency? Thank you. You must book a consult just the links in the description. Can
Ronalee Carey 1:29:45
you probably yes. Should you know maybe relax?
Mark Holthe 1:29:48
Nope. Absolutely. And then we'll wrap up with a comment here from margin deck. Immigration should be should make available work permits for all even conditional approval, but having People are not authorized to work does not make sense at all. Just common sense. So I get what you're saying, you know, if you're wink wink nudging, nudging that, well, you're not going to take enforcement action against someone, oops, for enforcement action against someone, I get it, you know, it'd be helpful if they just authorized it. Like, you know, they did say, for refugee application, even though that's different, and you know, issued an open work permit, but the problem is, they're trying to make sure they're not incentivizing people to file these applications, when they really don't have a foundation, like rondalee has so adequately described here. These factors don't apply. So that's really, if
Ronalee Carey 1:30:44
people can't be removed, they are entitled to apply for work permit. So you know, if you're from a country where there is a moratorium of removals to that country, but you don't have status in Canada, you can apply for a work permit. It's the people who can leave. That can't get work permit and that choose to remain in Canada and work unauthorized. That's a lot different. That
Mark Holthe 1:31:08
is exactly the case. All right. I think I'm, I think I'm hearing something. I think I am. Yes. Yeah, there it is. All right. This is our Sian Ara. So Rhonda Lee, thank you so very, very much for joining me, and all of you. Thanks. And hopefully this is helpful. Hopefully it gives you at least a better understanding when someone's trying to convince you to do an agency when you have other options. All right, everyone. Take care. Have a great evening. rondalee. And, yeah, sign out. Right now.
Sponsor 1:31:48
Thank you for listening to the Canadian immigration podcast, your trusted source for information on Canadian immigration law policy and practice. If you would like to book a legal consultation, please visit www dot Hobi law.com You can also find lots more helpful information on our Canadian immigration Institute YouTube channel where you can join mark on one of his many Canadian immigration live q&a S. See you soon and all the best as you navigate this crazy world we call Canadian immigration
